I don't consider a pigtail to be a basic 3D shape, GDTF Builder considers it to be a cube, while MA-3D appears to consider it to be something closer to a shpere, personally, I expect pigtails to be more cylindrical and it's cylinders that I see most often when manufacturers include then in the CAD symbols. Cubes, spheres and cylinders on their own may be considered basc shapes but I don't think there is any agreement on pigtails always being one of those distinct shapes. I think our thoughts on the various aspects of the 3D side are very different and I doubt we'll find common ground on this. Getting back on the topic of reporting anything that seems problematic, looking at the GDTF file for the Spiider, there are some things that seem wrong to me or don't make much sense, a few that I can recall specifics on are: 1. All beams are defined as having a beam radius of 50mm, I don't have access to a physical fixture to check but I would think this must be in the region of around twice the size of the physical lens? 2. All beam are defined as having a CRI of 100, this seems optimistic? 3. All Min/Max attribute values are 0 and 1 respectively, consider for example the Pan attribute definition: <ChannelFunction Attribute="Pan" CustomName="" DMXFrom="0/2" Default="32768/2" Max="1.000000" Min="0.000000" Name="Pan" OriginalAttribute="" PhysicalFrom="-270.000000" PhysicalTo="270.000000" RealAcceleration="0.433300" RealFade="2.300000"> If a consumer considers and implements the Min and Max values as defined then the operator would experience a total range of movement on pan of just 1 degree? 4. Is the method of measuring a beam's LuminousFlux documented anywhere? I see wildly different values being used in GDTF files for different fixtures from different manufacturers but with the same LED emitters, I'm sure optics plays some part in it but I'm seeing differences of as much as 800%, I have to assume that these fgures are being determined with different methods.

There is no mechanism for an operator to set a vertex limit directly, the limit is a product of the render settings, I determined what the vertex limit is for the default settings by taking a model that was being visualised as boxes and reducing the vertex count of the model until the actual model geometry was visualised. My understanding of the GDTF standard is that the total vertex count for a model includes the vertices of all geometry, in the case of the Spiider this would include the pigtail primitive and any and all geometry references, not just the vertices from the model files as you were/are counting them. From some basic testing with MA-3D, that application certainly considers vertices from primitives and references as counting towards the total vertex count for a model, this is inline with my expectations and I consider it to be correct behaviour. I feel that this highlights an issue, how is it possible to create a model to a limited vertex count while that model contains objects of unknown vertex counts (i.e. pigtail primitives)? As the GDTF standard does not detail the construction of the primitives and places no limitations on the vertex counts of these primitives it seems that platforms and applications can construct these primitives however they wish with as many or as little vertices as they like. The pigtail primitive is not added to the GDTF file at the time it is created, it is provided by the platform/application that subsequently loads the GDTF file. Your builder may consider the pigtail primitive as a simple cube of (presumably) 8 vertices, but there is no guarantee that all platforms will provide a simple cube. I took the Spiider model and moved the base to get a clearer view of what MA-3D is providing as the pigtail primitive, here is a screenshot of the pigtail primitive, As you can see, it's slightly more complex than a simple cube and certainly consists of considerably more vertices than that of a simple cube. Can you point me to the section of the GDTF specification that covers this detail? All I can see is a single line stating, There is no mention of this only being applicable to some types of fixtures and no mention of what if any limits apply to other types of fixtures/devices.

The Spiider only comes up if I allow MA-3D to visualise models with vertex counts >1200, this should not be a requirement to visualise GDTF models as the total vertex count for any one model should not exceed 1200. As such I don't consider it correct to say it comes up "OK". I prodded the system a little more on this and have determined that the pigtail primitive generated by the current version of MA3 onPC consists of 190 vertices. Adding this 190 to the total vertex count of the Spiider models (1126 including geometry references) results in the Spiider having a total vertex count of 1316 which explains why MA-3D (with default settings) visualises the Spiider as a collection of simple primitives.

I don't believe this vertex count to be correct, as I don't believe that reusing model files and/or geometry referencing comes for free, does it? pixel3.glb may contain 20 vertices but it's referenced 12 times in the geometry so I don't believe that it adds just 20 to the vertex count, my testing would suggest that it adds 12 x 20 (240). Similarly, pixel2.glb is referenced 6 times so it adds 6 x 10 (60) to the vertex count and pixel1.glb twice so adds 24 to the vertex count. The actual vertex count from the model files is: models/gltf/yoke.glb 202 models/gltf/head.glb 302 models/gltf/pixel3.glb 20 x 12 (240) models/gltf/base.glb 298 models/gltf/pixel2.glb 10 x 6 (60) models/gltf/pixel1.glb 12 x 2 (24) total vertex count: 1126 However, this total does not take into account vertices from any additional geometry, the "Pigtail" for example, this also does not come for free with regards the vertex count. I haven't seen anything within the standard that details what the max vertex count should be for any of the internally or auto generated primitives, it seems entirely arbitrary and down to the individual consumers to use as simple or complex objects as they see fit. For sure I'm very much at beginner/entry level when it comes to all things MA and I could be wrong, however, I don't believe that is the issue in this case. My testing suggests that the MA-3D window with "out of the box" default render settings will visualise models with a vertex count just over 1200 (if my test count is correct, 1210 seems to be the max), anything over that then the model is visualised as simple primitives ("packing boxes" as you term it). I can reliably trigger the "packing box" look by doing nothing more than increasing the vertex count which leads me to conclude that changing (upping) the level of detail for rendering does not, as far as I can tell, enable visualisation of external model files but rather enables visualisation of models with higher vertex counts. I took the Spiider GDTF file and removed the Pigtail from the geometry and then the model files are visualised with the default render settings which leads me to conclude that the internally generated pigtail primitive adds a significant amount of vertices to any geometry that includes it and, in the case of the Spiider model, tips the vertex count over the max count defined by the GDTF standard for default resolution of 3D models. Either that or there is some issue with the Pigtail definition that's giving MA-3D a hard time but I didn't see anything untoward from a casual glance. See below for a screenshot of MA-3D with default settings, your Spiider model above, my Spiider model below. My Spiider model files accumulate to a total vertex count of 1186. If my conclusion is correct that the "packing box" look is triggered by vertex count then it makes no sense that a model with a total vertex count of 1186 is visualised correctly while model files that you say total 844 vertices are being visualised as simple primitives, if I'm incorrect in my conclusion I would like to know what exactly does trigger the packing box look. Does anyone know if there is there any logfile that MA3 produces that might provide some details on this?

The current version of the Robin Spiider is being visualised as primitive types only on the current version (v1.8.8.2) of MA3 onPC (see attached). Also note thatonly the center pixel is being visualised, not being too familiar with GDTF or MA3 it's unclear to me if that is simply the result of the visualised primitive types or a separate issue. According to the share, the 3D model has been tested, how is this being tested? I do wonder about the benefits of creating fixture specific models, it seems that most are very low quality significantly lacking definition of the details to such an extent the model is barely (and in some cases, totally) unrecognisable. I understand the main purpose of the default res of the model is for use by visualisers and as such super detailed models are not required, but, the max 1200 vertex restriction is too limiting in many cases.